Others on the mailinglist explained him there was already some integration with Kopete. He then started talking about OO.o, which apparently was looking for an email application to integrate into the suite, together with IM (and probably cooperative stuff as well). He pointed out KMail and RS messenger would have a shot. At a certain point, I said to him:
Let them work with the other freedesktop standards instead of doing ad-hoc integration. Working with Telepathy and Akonadi would be much better, as that would mean integration with all apps that work with those infrastructures, so much less duplication of effort.
He then asked me if I would like to help translate RS to dutch, and I did help a bit with that. Story closed, apparently. This was a little over a month ago.
Then, a few days ago, it started again, on the KOffice mailinglist. He said he heard on the KDE PIM/KMail mailinglist there would be integration between KOffice and KMail. With integration, he apparently meant they would merge, which of course lead to a "huh?" from Boudewijn.
And again, I tried to explain how it would be unlikely KDE would integrate with just one application, but rather go for a common infrastructure. Then came the email I really wanted to let you guys read, as Kevin Krammer wrote such a beautiful response, pointing out the exact flaw in reasoning which made this discussion go on and on:
Basically a misconception based on the way applications aggregate functionality on uncooperative platforms such as Windows, i.e. by putting all in the same application.
Of course! And this other way of thinking and working seems pretty hard to understand. See how companies often have trouble separating "Freeware" with "Free Software". And even when they do, how hard it can be to play by the rules, or to cooperate with the larger community. See how users have trouble with the paradigma's in the FOSS world, like how installing and managing software work.
And of course, the central theme of FOSS is cooperation. It's what we do, breath, live (see what I stumbled upon yesterday, or how LWN.net currently has a story about Volkswagen working on the linux kernel - which you can't read yet, subscribers only). And apparently, it is hard to understand it's full implications, no matter how basic it is for human nature... Kevin on that again:
Obviously KDE applications, on any platform, can do better, i.e. using our framework's cooperation infrastructures and shared libraries.
So the idea/suggestion can be rephrased as "thing about using communication infrastructure", which I am pretty sure the KOffice developers are already thinking about for future releases, e.g. collaborative editing.
Topics such as this show how more advanced the KDE framework is. While other office projects have to basically swallow communication tools (probably a full blown PIM suite), KOffice has the option of just interfacing with the respective domain specialists' work.
Amen. The KDE, the Linux, the FOSS way of thinking is so much more advanced, many on the other platforms don't even get it when we try to explain it ;-)
I really hope and expect this to change. Over time, both users and companies will start to understand. And that will benefit FOSS enormously. It's about communication. Explaining how we think and work is incredibly important. Cooperation is so fundamental to how we think and work, even when we 'compete' with other projects, we don't even see it that much anymore. We don't get it when others don't get it, and try to explain the details instead of the big picture (like I did).
Love to ya all,
/Jos
Thanks, this was a brillaint read
ReplyDeleteAmen to that!
ReplyDeleteKevin's statements sort of verify something that I've blogged about before and a slogan about KDE that I've sort of come up with.
KDE: Integration done right
Thanks, this very nice read!
ReplyDeleteI'd like to share these ideas with my not-so-geeky colleges.
Maybe you know if somebody has/is working on a presentation about the "big picture"?
@ anonymous asking for presentations/more: there is an excellent (though rather old) essay by Erik S. Raymond, dubbed the Cathedral and the Bazaar (http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/).
ReplyDeleteThis does talk about these things. Also, Richard Stallman himself has talked about these kind of things a lot.
Actually, one of the main reasons Stallman things proprietary software is "evil" is because it doesn't do justice to the fundamental predisposition of human beings to share and work together. He considers that wrong, a bit like how Marx considered taking away the fruits of labor from hard working people, and/or not letting them be involved in the whole process was a wrong thing to do.
Marx considered 'creation' an expression of being human, and not allowing people to express themselves that way is denying them their humanity. And it's not just Marx who thought that, though others considered his standpoint of work being THE think which makes one human a bit limited. But see how people in the modern society have hobbies like pottery. See how rewarding it is do to something with your hands if you work all day in an office. See how we love to create things. Marx got a point, even though it's not the full story.
Stallman likewise sees sharing, cooperating as fundamental to human beings, and sees it as inhumane to take that ability away from them. See what currently happens with music - if you meet a friend, and you share your mp3 music with him, it feels totally natural. Not doing it (giving him while you don't lose anything!!!) feels wrong.
The music industry has to fight that natural tendency to share, imagine how difficult a job they have... Teaching us sharing with others is wrong... The same the software industry has been trying to tell us for years. Some bought it, yes. But that indoctrination has to stop etc etc etc...
I guess you get the point ;-)
There is so much more to this, you know... A talk by Richard or even better, Eben Moglen can start you thinking about these things. Look for some of their talks online, video or just audio.
@ jucato:
ReplyDeleteyour article is really good, it should be linked to from as many locations as possible ;-)
Serious, the kde wiki's, promo stuff (no idea if we even have collections of links about promo things somewhere) etc, should link to it. Maybe the KDE.org site, even...